Post by dancingwithdragons on Oct 20, 2013 0:37:04 GMT
THE DREAM-SELF
I am seeking other opinions on the "Dream-Self", which is the "double" in Castaneda's books. (Tales of Power). Instead of continuing this topic in my older thread about shape shifting, I thought it would be fitting to post a new thread dedicated to the "double".
First, I will quote Don Genaro's experiences (found in the same book).
It's a lot of reading, but if you have time, please take the moment to read it.
FIRST EXPERIENCE
"When it first happened to me, I didn't know it had happened," he explained. "One day I had
been picking plants in the mountains. I had gone into a place that was worked by other herb
collectors. I had two huge sacks of plants. I was ready to go home, but before I did I decided to
take a moment's rest. I lay down on the side of the trail in the shade of a tree and I fell asleep. I
heard then the sound of people coming down the hill and woke up. I hurriedly ran for cover and
hid behind some bushes a short distance across the road from where I had fallen asleep. While I hid there I had the nagging impression I had forgotten something. I looked to see if I had my two sacks of plants. I didn't have them. I looked across the road to the place where I had been sleeping and I nearly dropped my pants with fright. I was still there asleep! It was me! I touched my body.
I was myself! By that time the people that were coming down the hill were upon the me that was
asleep, while the me that was fully awake looked helplessly from my hiding place. Damn it to
hell! They were going to find me there and take my sacks away. But they went by me as if I were not there at all.
"My vision had been so vivid that I went wild. I screamed and then I woke up again. Damn it!
It had been a dream!"
Don Genaro stopped his account and looked at me as if waiting for a question or a comment.
"Tell him where you woke up the second time," don Juan said.
"I woke up by the road," don Genaro said, "where I had fallen asleep. But for one moment I
didn't quite know where I really was. I can almost say that I was still looking at myself waking
up, then something pulled me to the side of the road and I found myself rubbing my eyes."
There was a long pause. I did not know what to say.
"And what did you do next?" don Juan asked.
I realized, when both of them began to laugh, that he was teasing me. He was imitating my
questions. Don Genaro went on talking. He said that he was stunned for a moment and then went to check everything. "The place where I had hid was there exactly as I had seen it," he said. "And the people who had walked by me were down the road, a short distance away. I know it because I ran downhill
after them. They were the same people I had seen. I followed them until they got to town. They
must have thought I was mad. I asked them if they had seen my friend sleeping by the side of the road. They all said they hadn't."
SECOND
"But one day, a few months later, after a terribly tiring day, I fell asleep like a log in
midafternoon. It had just started to rain and a leak in the roof woke me up. I jumped out of bed
and climbed on top of the house to fix the leak before it began to pour. I felt so fine and strong
that I finished in one minute and I didn't even get wet. I thought that the snooze I had taken had
done me a lot of good. When I was through I went back into the house to get something to eat and I realized that I could not swallow. I thought I was sick. I mashed some roots and leaves and
wrapped them around my neck and went to my bed. And then again when I got to my bed I
nearly dropped my pants. I was there in bed asleep! I wanted to shake myself and wake me up,
but I knew that that was not the thing one should do. So I ran out of the house. I was panic stricken.
I roamed around the hills aimlessly. I had no idea where I was going and although I had
lived all my life there I got lost. I walked in the rain and didn't even feel it. It seemed that I
couldn't think. Then the lightning and thunder became so intense that I woke up again."
He paused for a moment.
"Do you want to know where I woke up?" he asked me.
"Certainly," don Juan answered.
"I woke up in the hills in the rain," he said.
THIRD
"My next chance took place at my benefactor's house. I was helping him with the housework.
I had lain down to rest and as usual I fell sound asleep. His house was definitely a place of power for me and helped me. I was suddenly aroused by a loud noise and awakened. My benefactor's house was large. He was a wealthy man and had many people working for him. The noise seemed to be the sound of a shovel digging in gravel. I sat up to listen and then I stood up. The noise was very unsettling to me but I couldn't figure out why. I was pondering whether to go and check it out when I noticed that I was asleep on the floor. This time I knew what to expect and what to do and I followed the noise. I walked to the back of the house. There was no one there. The noise seemed to come from beyond the house. I kept on following it. The more I followed it the quicker I could move. I ended up at a distant place, witnessing incredible things."
He explained that at the time of those events he still was in the beginning stages of his
apprenticeship and had done very little in the realm of dreaming, but that he had an uncanny
facility to dream that he was looking at himself.
"Where did you go, don Genaro?" I asked.
"That was the first time that I had really moved in dreaming" he said. "I knew enough about it
to behave correctly, though. I didn't look at anything directly and ended up in a deep ravine where my benefactor had some of his power plants."
"Do you think it works better if one knows very little about dreaming?" I asked.
"No!" don Juan interjected. "Each of us has a facility for something in particular. Genaro's
knack is for dreaming." "What did you see in the ravine, don Genaro?" I asked.
"I saw my benefactor doing some dangerous maneuvers with people. I thought I was there to
help him and hid behind some trees. Yet I couldn't have known how to help. I was not dumb,
though, and I realized that the scene was there for me to watch, not to act in."
"When and how and where did you wake up?"
"I don't know when I woke up. It must have been hours later. All I know is that I followed my
benefactor and the other men, and when they were about to reach my benefactor's house the noise that they made, because they were arguing, woke me up. I was at the place where I had seen myself asleep.
"Upon waking up, I realized that whatever I had seen and done was not a dream. I had actually
gone some distance away, guided by the sound."
"Was your benefactor aware of what you were doing?"
"Certainly. He had been making the noise with the shovel to help me accomplish my task.
When he walked into the house he pretended to scold me for falling asleep. I knew that he had
seen me. Later on, after his friends had left, he told me that he had noticed my glow hiding
behind the trees."
FOURTH
"The fourth time was a more bizarre and a more complete vision," he said. "I found myself
asleep in the middle of a cultivated field. I saw myself lying there on my side sound asleep. I
knew that it was dreaming, because I had set myself to do dreaming every night. Usually, every
time I had seen myself asleep, I was at the site where I had gone to sleep. This time I was not in my bed, and I knew I had gone to bed that night. In this dreaming it was daytime. So, I began to explore. I moved away from the place where I was lying and oriented myself. I knew where I
was. I was actually not too far from my house, perhaps a couple of miles away. I walked around
looking at every detail of the place. I stood in the shade of a big tree a short distance away and
peered across a flat strip of land to some corn fields on the side of a hill. Something quite unusual struck me then; the details of the surroundings did not change or vanish no matter how long I peered at them. I got scared and ran back to where I was sleeping. I was still there exactly as I had been before. I began to watch myself. I had an eerie feeling of indifference towards the body I was watching. "Then I heard the sound of people approaching. People always seemed to be around for me. I ran up ahead to a small hill and carefully watched from there. There were ten people coming to the field where I was. They were all young men. I ran back to where I was lying and went through one of the most agonizing times of my life, while I faced myself, lying there snoring like a pig. I knew that I had to awaken me but I had no idea how. I also knew that it was deadly for me to awaken myself. But if those young men were to find me there they were going to be very upset. All those deliberations that were going through my mind were not really thoughts. They
were more appropriately scenes in front of my eyes. My worrying, for instance, was a scene in
which I looked at myself while I had the sensation of being boxed in. I call that worrying. It has
happened to me a number of times after that first time.
"Well, since I didn't know what to do I stood looking at myself, waiting for the worst. A
bunch of fleeting images went past me in front of my eyes. I hung on to one in particular, the
sight of my house and my bed. The image became very clear. Oh, how I wished to be back in my bed! Something shook me then; it felt like someone was hitting me and I woke up. I was on my bed! Obviously, I had been dreaming. I jumped out of bed and ran to the place of my dreaming. It was exactly as I had seen it. The young men were working there. I watched them for a long time. They were the same ones I had seen.
"I came back to the same place at the end of the day after everybody had gone and stood at
the very spot where I had seen myself asleep. Someone had lain there. The weeds were
crumpled!"
From what I gather, Don Genaro's experiences are somewhat like what you would experience in Astral Projection. I notice one major difference, though. That is the ability to interact with physical reality, while in the "dream" or rather, "Astral" Body, and the ability for ordinary people to see with their physical eyes, the "double". Notice how Genaro was unable to eat food, but he was able to pick it up. Also, how the weeds were crumpled by his double, as if it were his physical body. Earlier in the book, Genaro's double was able to pick up and move physical objects, with Castaneda and Don Juan watching.
My theory is that the average astral projectioner cannot do these things because their "internal dialogue" tells them they cannot. Another concept taught by Don Juan, which suggests we make up or world with our "internal dialogue", or "talking to ourselves". So that the impossible is only impossible, because we tell our selves it is.
What are your thoughts on the "Double", or "Dream/Astral self? Are there any other sources with similar information?
Thanks!
I am seeking other opinions on the "Dream-Self", which is the "double" in Castaneda's books. (Tales of Power). Instead of continuing this topic in my older thread about shape shifting, I thought it would be fitting to post a new thread dedicated to the "double".
First, I will quote Don Genaro's experiences (found in the same book).
It's a lot of reading, but if you have time, please take the moment to read it.
FIRST EXPERIENCE
"When it first happened to me, I didn't know it had happened," he explained. "One day I had
been picking plants in the mountains. I had gone into a place that was worked by other herb
collectors. I had two huge sacks of plants. I was ready to go home, but before I did I decided to
take a moment's rest. I lay down on the side of the trail in the shade of a tree and I fell asleep. I
heard then the sound of people coming down the hill and woke up. I hurriedly ran for cover and
hid behind some bushes a short distance across the road from where I had fallen asleep. While I hid there I had the nagging impression I had forgotten something. I looked to see if I had my two sacks of plants. I didn't have them. I looked across the road to the place where I had been sleeping and I nearly dropped my pants with fright. I was still there asleep! It was me! I touched my body.
I was myself! By that time the people that were coming down the hill were upon the me that was
asleep, while the me that was fully awake looked helplessly from my hiding place. Damn it to
hell! They were going to find me there and take my sacks away. But they went by me as if I were not there at all.
"My vision had been so vivid that I went wild. I screamed and then I woke up again. Damn it!
It had been a dream!"
Don Genaro stopped his account and looked at me as if waiting for a question or a comment.
"Tell him where you woke up the second time," don Juan said.
"I woke up by the road," don Genaro said, "where I had fallen asleep. But for one moment I
didn't quite know where I really was. I can almost say that I was still looking at myself waking
up, then something pulled me to the side of the road and I found myself rubbing my eyes."
There was a long pause. I did not know what to say.
"And what did you do next?" don Juan asked.
I realized, when both of them began to laugh, that he was teasing me. He was imitating my
questions. Don Genaro went on talking. He said that he was stunned for a moment and then went to check everything. "The place where I had hid was there exactly as I had seen it," he said. "And the people who had walked by me were down the road, a short distance away. I know it because I ran downhill
after them. They were the same people I had seen. I followed them until they got to town. They
must have thought I was mad. I asked them if they had seen my friend sleeping by the side of the road. They all said they hadn't."
SECOND
"But one day, a few months later, after a terribly tiring day, I fell asleep like a log in
midafternoon. It had just started to rain and a leak in the roof woke me up. I jumped out of bed
and climbed on top of the house to fix the leak before it began to pour. I felt so fine and strong
that I finished in one minute and I didn't even get wet. I thought that the snooze I had taken had
done me a lot of good. When I was through I went back into the house to get something to eat and I realized that I could not swallow. I thought I was sick. I mashed some roots and leaves and
wrapped them around my neck and went to my bed. And then again when I got to my bed I
nearly dropped my pants. I was there in bed asleep! I wanted to shake myself and wake me up,
but I knew that that was not the thing one should do. So I ran out of the house. I was panic stricken.
I roamed around the hills aimlessly. I had no idea where I was going and although I had
lived all my life there I got lost. I walked in the rain and didn't even feel it. It seemed that I
couldn't think. Then the lightning and thunder became so intense that I woke up again."
He paused for a moment.
"Do you want to know where I woke up?" he asked me.
"Certainly," don Juan answered.
"I woke up in the hills in the rain," he said.
THIRD
"My next chance took place at my benefactor's house. I was helping him with the housework.
I had lain down to rest and as usual I fell sound asleep. His house was definitely a place of power for me and helped me. I was suddenly aroused by a loud noise and awakened. My benefactor's house was large. He was a wealthy man and had many people working for him. The noise seemed to be the sound of a shovel digging in gravel. I sat up to listen and then I stood up. The noise was very unsettling to me but I couldn't figure out why. I was pondering whether to go and check it out when I noticed that I was asleep on the floor. This time I knew what to expect and what to do and I followed the noise. I walked to the back of the house. There was no one there. The noise seemed to come from beyond the house. I kept on following it. The more I followed it the quicker I could move. I ended up at a distant place, witnessing incredible things."
He explained that at the time of those events he still was in the beginning stages of his
apprenticeship and had done very little in the realm of dreaming, but that he had an uncanny
facility to dream that he was looking at himself.
"Where did you go, don Genaro?" I asked.
"That was the first time that I had really moved in dreaming" he said. "I knew enough about it
to behave correctly, though. I didn't look at anything directly and ended up in a deep ravine where my benefactor had some of his power plants."
"Do you think it works better if one knows very little about dreaming?" I asked.
"No!" don Juan interjected. "Each of us has a facility for something in particular. Genaro's
knack is for dreaming." "What did you see in the ravine, don Genaro?" I asked.
"I saw my benefactor doing some dangerous maneuvers with people. I thought I was there to
help him and hid behind some trees. Yet I couldn't have known how to help. I was not dumb,
though, and I realized that the scene was there for me to watch, not to act in."
"When and how and where did you wake up?"
"I don't know when I woke up. It must have been hours later. All I know is that I followed my
benefactor and the other men, and when they were about to reach my benefactor's house the noise that they made, because they were arguing, woke me up. I was at the place where I had seen myself asleep.
"Upon waking up, I realized that whatever I had seen and done was not a dream. I had actually
gone some distance away, guided by the sound."
"Was your benefactor aware of what you were doing?"
"Certainly. He had been making the noise with the shovel to help me accomplish my task.
When he walked into the house he pretended to scold me for falling asleep. I knew that he had
seen me. Later on, after his friends had left, he told me that he had noticed my glow hiding
behind the trees."
FOURTH
"The fourth time was a more bizarre and a more complete vision," he said. "I found myself
asleep in the middle of a cultivated field. I saw myself lying there on my side sound asleep. I
knew that it was dreaming, because I had set myself to do dreaming every night. Usually, every
time I had seen myself asleep, I was at the site where I had gone to sleep. This time I was not in my bed, and I knew I had gone to bed that night. In this dreaming it was daytime. So, I began to explore. I moved away from the place where I was lying and oriented myself. I knew where I
was. I was actually not too far from my house, perhaps a couple of miles away. I walked around
looking at every detail of the place. I stood in the shade of a big tree a short distance away and
peered across a flat strip of land to some corn fields on the side of a hill. Something quite unusual struck me then; the details of the surroundings did not change or vanish no matter how long I peered at them. I got scared and ran back to where I was sleeping. I was still there exactly as I had been before. I began to watch myself. I had an eerie feeling of indifference towards the body I was watching. "Then I heard the sound of people approaching. People always seemed to be around for me. I ran up ahead to a small hill and carefully watched from there. There were ten people coming to the field where I was. They were all young men. I ran back to where I was lying and went through one of the most agonizing times of my life, while I faced myself, lying there snoring like a pig. I knew that I had to awaken me but I had no idea how. I also knew that it was deadly for me to awaken myself. But if those young men were to find me there they were going to be very upset. All those deliberations that were going through my mind were not really thoughts. They
were more appropriately scenes in front of my eyes. My worrying, for instance, was a scene in
which I looked at myself while I had the sensation of being boxed in. I call that worrying. It has
happened to me a number of times after that first time.
"Well, since I didn't know what to do I stood looking at myself, waiting for the worst. A
bunch of fleeting images went past me in front of my eyes. I hung on to one in particular, the
sight of my house and my bed. The image became very clear. Oh, how I wished to be back in my bed! Something shook me then; it felt like someone was hitting me and I woke up. I was on my bed! Obviously, I had been dreaming. I jumped out of bed and ran to the place of my dreaming. It was exactly as I had seen it. The young men were working there. I watched them for a long time. They were the same ones I had seen.
"I came back to the same place at the end of the day after everybody had gone and stood at
the very spot where I had seen myself asleep. Someone had lain there. The weeds were
crumpled!"
From what I gather, Don Genaro's experiences are somewhat like what you would experience in Astral Projection. I notice one major difference, though. That is the ability to interact with physical reality, while in the "dream" or rather, "Astral" Body, and the ability for ordinary people to see with their physical eyes, the "double". Notice how Genaro was unable to eat food, but he was able to pick it up. Also, how the weeds were crumpled by his double, as if it were his physical body. Earlier in the book, Genaro's double was able to pick up and move physical objects, with Castaneda and Don Juan watching.
My theory is that the average astral projectioner cannot do these things because their "internal dialogue" tells them they cannot. Another concept taught by Don Juan, which suggests we make up or world with our "internal dialogue", or "talking to ourselves". So that the impossible is only impossible, because we tell our selves it is.
What are your thoughts on the "Double", or "Dream/Astral self? Are there any other sources with similar information?
Thanks!